York Affinity 9.C LP furnace intermittantly doesn't work
My house is about 6 years old I bought it 1.5 years ago. My HVAC system is a York Affinity 8T series heat pump (model # YZE06011B), a York Affinity 9.C gas furnace (burning LP, model # PC920N120DH11A). It has 3 zones, controlled by a Honeywell TrueZone (model HZ432). Each zone thermostat is a Honeywell model # TH8321U. The original installer is out of business and no one in my area services York HVAC stuff. My problem is that the gas furnace intermittently does not kick on when it’s supposed to (colder than 30 degrees or so). I’ve had two different service outfits come in. One replaced the pressure switches, rerouted the pressure switch hoses, and then threw up his hands and said “it’s the nature of the beast!” and quoted me a new furnace. The other guy changed the control board to a Honeywell TrueZone model # (the original control board had a blown resistor). On my own, I’ve cleaned out the condensation trap, added water to the trap, blown out the drain hoses, changed the filter, and drilled a drain hole in the horizontal vent pipe since it looks like it’s sloped to the left (let out a bunch of water!). I thought this was my breakthrough, but on the last cold morning the furnace didn’t come on. Both guys pointed out that a prime suspect is my vent pipe having too many elbows. It’s about 18’ of 3” PVC pipe from furnace to roof with 5 elbows (the York installation manual allows for 35’ with 5 elbows). I’ve also read up on the TrueZone and the thermostats, gone through all the checkouts, and all the wiring seems to be in order. I’ve already spent $1000 on this and am not convinced that these service guys can help further. Link to some pictures: https://picasaweb.google.com/reallyt...CPvwh5H0mNPoMg I’m not a service guy but am an engineer and can diagnose basic stuff. If anyone has any ideas, I’m all ears. Go onto the york website and hit find a dealer. A good dealer should be able to work with york (or maybe a rep of york) to resolve the issue. ------------------------------ Other ideas: When the furnace fails, does it give an error code? (flashing led?) You said it fails when it's below 30F. Does it ever fail in mild weather? Is the furnace in a cold garage? High efficiency furnaces shouldn't be installed in cold spaces - at least without taking precautions to prevent the condensate lines and trap from freezing. Has the furnace had this problem since day one? You can rule out the zone controller by disconnecting the wire connected to W and jumpering R + W at the board. ------------------------ and drilled a drain hole in the horizontal vent pipe since it looks like it’s sloped to the left (let out a bunch of water!) That might be part of the problem. Horizontal vent runs must slope towards the furnace so condensation doesn't accumulate. Any water in the exhaust pipe is supposed to drain back into the furnace. ----------------------- Ducts look kind of small for a 120 000 btu furnace, but i could be wrong. There's no dealer within 50 miles from me. 1) the board flashes 3 red's. 2) It works just fine in mild weather. 3) The garage also contains 2 gas fired water heaters so if the garage doors stay shut, the garage stays above freezing. 4) I'd say this problem has happened intermittently for the last two years. I bump into the previous owner once in a while, so I'll ask him. I installed that drain line just recently and haven't tried it long enough to see if it makes a difference. I think I might try re-doing the vent myself by going straight up, using 45 degree elbows and eliminating any horizontal runs. Thanks for your response. update on this problem: The three flashing reds indicated a stuck pressure switch. I tested it and sure enough, the new pressure switch was stuck open. I replaced it and all is well for now.
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I dont have a lot of cash to spend on a miter saw so I have narrowed it down to these 2. I need it for building some stairs. 1. Ryobi I cant find and reviews on this one. Ryobi Power Tools :: 10 Sliding Compund Miter Saw with Laser 2. Kobalt/Craftsman. these seem to be the same saw just a different color. The Craftsman has mixed reviews. Some say it works great others say the angle measurments are off. It sounds like the plastic lift handle breaks and the dust collector is a joke. Kobalt at Lowe's: 10 15-Amp Sliding Laser Compound Miter Saw Craftsman 10 in. Sliding Miter Saw Thanks for any advice. Keep in mind that the maximum width board you can cross-cut with a 10 in. mitre saw is about 5.5 in. I recently upgraded from my old Craftsman 10 to a 12 Ridgid and I've been very happy. Max cut is about 9; not sure if it's available as a slider or not. I can tell you my old Craftsman had both issues you mentioned; dust collection was not great and the scale was off. TG, did you get the one with the dislocated drive motor and belt drive? Awesome! I replaced a well used Bosch with the Ridgid 12, and love it, especially with tall moldings. Motor is out of the way. It is available as a slider, but $. Omega, it all boils down to what you will do with it. I cut with mine 6 hours a day 5 days a week, so mine has to be bullet proof. If you do weekend warrior work, then the Ryobi with laser works well. As Ken says, the 10 will reduce the size of stock you can cut, but being a slider, you can cut wider boards in one pass. I have used my SIL's when I visit there and do repairs (I make him buy tools since I can't take mine with me). It cuts well, low vibration and the laser is better than my Ridgid. I simply can't get mine zeroed in. And you can't see it in the sunshine anyway. Fill us in on your use of the saw. Thanks for the replies. The two that I’m looking at are sliding miter saws and I believe the cross cut is 12. Tow Guy, I have looked at the ridgid but the sliding version is $550. The dust collection is not that big of a deal to me but the angle measurements would be pretty annoying. I am more of a weekend warrior. I have been remodeling my house for the last couple of years and have been using my dad’s 12 miter saw. I am about to finish out some stairs and I have to cut some treads 11 1/4 and skirt boards. I thought about just using a circular saw with a homemade fence but I’m not sure if that would be as accurate. I can’t afford to have a bad cut because these stair parts aren't cheap. Plus, I would like to have my own miter saw (I’m tired of lugging my dad’s back and forth between my house and his :-). Does your SIL have the Ryobi? Omega, yeah, he has the ryobi, and it works well. Be aware, however, when cutting stair treads, they are not always cut at 90 degrees. Sometimes the framing determines if there is a taper or not. Place a framing square against the stringers, spanning more than one of course, and copy that angle to your tread. I usually cut a sacrificial riser to use on each level to gain a flat square abutment along the stringers. BUT, if you have good framing, the slider is the way to go. Chandler, yup. Main reason I bought it (besides the age of the old Craftsman) was it had a huge markdown on it. Guess HD was just clearing out stock because it was new in box. Yeah, I noticed that 12 ridgid slider is pretty pricey. Thanks chandler. I have checked out a book from the library Building Stairs by Andy Engel and am learning a lot. I am just going step by step thru that book. So far I have removed the temp. treads (2x12's) risers and replace with subtreads subrisers 3/4 plywood that I have already shimmed to square. My next step is to install the skirt board that I will also shim to square. After that treads/risers, finishing the flooring on the landing, then newel posts, handrail and balusters. Hopefully my stair parts will get here this week. This would probably take a pro 1 or 2 days to finish but I hope to have them finished in 2 months :-) Only in Alabama!! Go for it Bear!!
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I have a basic question about my 20 (appears to be 20 gal, most of the nameplate data is unreadable) gal pressure tank.It is blue and there are large Goulds Pump and Well-X-Trol stickers on it. After turning off the pump and draining the tank I checked the pressure at the auto tire air fitting on the side of the tank and it read zero, so.... with a bicycle tire pump I pumped and pumped and pumped and after about 20 minutes figured that that fitting must be used to introduce air into the plumbing in order to purge it of water. On top of the tank is a blue plastic plug that I am afraid of removing because I don't know if that will relieve the bladder of all pressure and leave me scrambling to figure out what fitting I need to fill it back up. But it now seems obvious that is where I need to check the pressure / fill it. What type of fitting do I need to check/fill the pressure tank air bladder? I can take a picture of the thing if I have not provided enough info. If this has been answered in detail in another thread please provide a link to it. Thank you. The pressure inthe bladder is measure at the top of the tank. There could be a plastic cover screwed on to the top of the valve. Hi I'm wondering..... Is the air valve (snifter valve) that you pumped the air into, on the tank or on the plumbing? If it was on the tank itself and you pumped air for 20 min. and didn't build any pressure, then you have a ruptured bladder. There's only one air valve on a bladder type pressure tank. If you found one that an air pump will connect to, then you've found the air valve. I suspect that the plastic cap you found on top is stuck in a threaded hole that a pump mounting bracket will bolt to. Take the plastic cap off and have a look at it. I'm with waterdoc on that if you've pump air for 20 minutes and there's still no pressure in the tank, that the bladder is probably bad. Put an air gauge on the valve you're pumping air in and see if there's pressure. Ron I thank you all for the prompt and usefull replies, and apologize for my not so prompt reply. Pumpman, you are correct that the plastic plug is fitted into a threaded hole. I did a little more pumping (with a different bike tire pump without a leaky connector ) last night and got the pressure to about 23 psi and it was holding an hour later when I checked it. My pump cut on pressure is about 25-26 psi. Now, on to my real problem. My pump is constantly cycling on and off. It is a 1/3 hp submersable pump (according to the goulds pump sticker on the pressure tank). I have isolated the problem to be between the pressure tank and the submerged pump by closing the valve that supplies water to the house and witnessing the pump continue to cycle. The pressure quickly builds up to about 45 psi then the pump will cut off (as it should) then the pressure radiply falls and I can hear the water draining out of the tank into the pipe that goes to the well then the switch picks up at about 25 psi (as it should) then the process repeats itself ad infinitem. I have no soggy spots in my lawn and have looked at the elbow fitting and pipe in the well while the pump as running and saw/heard no leaks. I think that the check valve in the pump (I assume it is in the pump, do they put foot valves on submersible pumps?) has stuck open. Can I put a check valve just prior to my pressure tank and pressure switch, or is there a specific and important reason that the check valve has to be in the well? You either have a bad check valve or a hole in the adapter at the top of the pump( years ago, installers used galvanized fittings and over time they will rust out) In either case you need to pull the pump (or have it pulled) and repair the problem. Waterdoc Waterdoc, you are absolutely correct. I pulled the pump yesterday and the innards of the check valve was in pieces. I replaced it and all seems to be working fine. I do have a couple of questions though. 1.Is there a specific and important reason that the check valve has to be in the well? 2.Would adding a second check valve just prior to the pressure switch and pressure tank be detrimental to the system? I'm thinking that the additional check valve would have the job of holding the house pressure while the one way down in the well, that's a half a day job to replace, would have the lighter load of holding the water in the line up to the additional check valve, hence less wear and tear. Is this sound thinking or would I just be adding uneccesary moving parts? 3. How should the ground wire be terminated? A wire was connected to the ground wire coming from the pressure switch then ran down the depth of the well but wasn't atatched to anything, just dangling. I went ahead and connected it to the body of the pump. Is the pump the normal grounding point or should it be atatched to earth ground somehow? Thank you very much for your time and expertise. Hello again, Yes, there should always be a check valve at the pump to keep the system from draining back into the well. All the pump manufacturers recommend that a check valve be installed at the tank also but I prefer not to. Without one, you can tell right away if you have developed a leak in the yard or well. Also, on many jobs, we install a yard hydrant at the well and with a check valve at the tank, the hydrant wouldn't work. As for the ground wire, all new pumps come with a green ground wire installed. If you have attached your wire to the pump you have done all you need to. Hope this helps. Waterdoc Waterdoc, It would seem as if my well woes are gone for now. thank you for answering my questions and giving advice. I'm fairly handy and most stuff around my new old house is fairly intuitive but it is nice to have some experts in the hip pocket for advice and support. Thanks again. I also have some minor septic problems and may be checking on the feasability and legality of a gray water cesspool here in the near future. So, unless some other emergency comes up before then I will talk to you guys when I start that.
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I was informed that vinegar can be used as an effective organic method to kill weeds if you spray it on them. Researching it a little on the net, I am coming across conflicting/confusing info about how well it works. Mainly I am coming across info that states regular store-bought grocery type vinegar apparently doesn't have enough percentage of acetic acid to do the job on hearty weeds, and that you need to get a stronger solution. Any comments/advice/experience using vinegar to kill weeds would be appreciated. I guess its possible..just like bleach will kill plants...but where would you get stronger vinegar? Buy laboratory acetic acid? Prob cost more than a weed killer and would still affect surrounding foliage. Anything extremely acid or alkaline will kill a plant.... Household vinegar has 5% acetic acid. Horticultural vinegar has anywhere from 15% to 30% acetic acid. Household vinegar used full strength will sometimes kill young weeds. If you want the 'big guns' you will need to purchase horticultural vinegar. It's non-selective so it will kill or harm anything it splashes on. Horticultural vinegar isn't that effective in thistle unless you spray when the thistle is young. Here's some helpful links about vinegar as weed control. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2002/020515.htm http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pub..._no_115=131932 And if you would like to make your own... http://www.vinegarman.com/ Newt Originally Posted by Newt If you want the 'big guns' you will need to purchase horticultural vinegar. Lotsa controversy about that horticultural vinegar Vinegar for Weed control, and it's really not too easily available (can't just run to the local garden store and expect to find it), would have to order it (23 bucks a gallon from Amazon.com plus of course the shipping cost). Also apparently it can be dangerously harmful if applied without full body protection, etc. This stuff here http://www.naturalknowhow.com/EcoCle...20EcoClear.pdf seems like a good way to go, but I have no clue where to buy it. I know these folks sell it. I don't think they sell direct to the public, but there is a store locator and contact info. http://www.bradfieldind.com/ Do a google with the term: buy horticultural vinegar Newt Originally Posted by Newt I know these folks sell it. I don't think they sell direct to the public, but there is a store locator and contact info. Bradfield Natural Fertilizers for lawns - organic fertilizers for your gardens Do a google with the term: buy horticultural vinegar Newt Thanks Newt for that info. Sgull, you are very welcome! Newt A kettle of boiling water works just as well...you could also add some vinegar to the water... Originally Posted by Debbie Long A kettle of boiling water works just as well...you could also add some vinegar to the water... But the boiling water would start to gradually cool off while doing it, and I wouldn't know when it cooled to the point where it would at an ineffective temperature, whatever that would be. I usually use it when I am working on a no more than 12 foot length, usually on walkways...unless there is a spot of weeds I want to get rid of.... and it has worked fine..... Boiling water works almost instantly. Pour it on dandelions and watch them drop over. Yes, you do need to keep it hot. I made the mistake of trying to kill the dandelions early when it was 52 degrees out. I got 2 killed, but then the water had cooled off too much. Apple cider vinegar is a little stronger than white vinegar. Yes, what you can buy in the grocery store does work. It takes a little longer. As was stated earlier, it is not selective and will kill everything: grass, flowers, trees, ect. Rubbing alcohol is also a weed killer. But the same thing goes, it is not selective. Originally Posted by indypower1 Apple cider vinegar is a little stronger than white vinegar. Yes, what you can buy in the grocery store does work. Apparently the regular vinegar you can get from the grocery store is generally effective on killing weeds during the early stages rather than beyond that when they've had a chance to get better established. I suppose that should be considered when trying to use regular grocery store vinegar as a weed killer. Quoted from one of the links provided in the third post in this thread (test results of vinegar as weed killer): The results indicated that the effectiveness of the vinegar to kill weeds was dependent on the concentration and the plant growth stage. Lower concentrations of 5 and 10 percent were more effective in killing the weeds during the early stages while at later stages they were not as effective as the 15 and 20 percent concentrations. Vinegar provided 95-100 per cent kill at all growth stages of the weeds studied at 15 and 20 % concentrations. Quoted from http://www.versatilevinegar.org/faqs.html: Typical white distilled vinegar is at least 4% acidity and not more than 7%. Cider and wine vinegars are typically slightly more acidic with approximately 5-6% acidity. From Jerry Baker: Buy a big sack of corn gluten meal. It is highly effective preemergent herbicide that zaps troublemakers including crabbgrass, dandelions, plantain and creeping bent grass. It will not harm the teeny life forms that keep your soil healthy. Perfectly safe for use around toddlers and pets. Just apply 25-50lbs per 2500 square feet. Works best in early spring before weeds sprout.
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I have a 3 year old T-B Tru Cut 100, it starts when primed or sprayed but won't stay running on its own. The first outing this spring my wife put some bad gas in it and it obviuosly wouldn't start, I drained the tank, made sure the line was clean, pulled the carb off, cleaned the float bowl, made sure the needle and seat were clean and unblocked, changed the oil, air cleaner and plug. It started right up and has been running good all season til now!!!! My son , a responsible 32 year old, borrowed it, because his was down with a broken cable, said it stalled once while he was mowing, seemed hard to start he said, but he was able to finish his grass, small area BTW, approx. 30 x 40 ft. I got it to my house it took a couple of pulls to get started and seemed to want to shut off. I started to cut went about 50' and it died, took about 8-9 pulls to get it restarted, let it run free over the sidewalk for a minute or so, proceeded to cut again and the same thing happened. Now it only runs when primed or sprayed, will stay running if you keep priming, but dies when you stop. Drained the tank, cleaned the line, etc. as before. Had it apart 5 times since yesterday, same thing, will only run when primed,etc. Any ideas that I may have missed??? Thanks Don Did you notice the little holes in the nut that held on the bowl, make sure they are clean. Sounds like your main jet is stopped up. Have a nice day. Geo Originally Posted by geogrubb Did you notice the little holes in the nut that held on the bowl, make sure they are clean. Sounds like your main jet is stopped up. Have a nice day. Geo Thanks for the reply I blew thru it the old fashion way and then with compressed air, did the bowl vents too, etc.Tried running with the gas tank cap loose and off, even, still no luck. The carb to manifold uses an o-ring instead of a gasket setup, It's the original thought maybe its past its usefulness and is sucking air, kind of doubt it though. OK how about this, get something to catch the fuel and remove the fuel line from the carb, did we get a nice fuel flow, reattach the fuel line, remove the bowl to see if fuel is flowing into the bowl, did you get a nice fuel flow, if all the above is true the carb main jet is still stopped up. I had a Tec TVXL840 that had a small piece of grass in the main jet when I used carb cleaner spray to clean the jet it only moved out of sight and would work its way back to clogging in a little while it about drove me nuts. Have a nice day. Geo Yes. Drained the tank, fresh gas, good flow. Hole in bowl nut is clear. I even put the float and needle in without the bowl on and checked if the float and needle was shutting off the gas flow and it worked properly. Soak in a bath cleaner (I like Napa # 6402) and recondition with the proper OE carburetor kit and any necessary mounting gasket(s), if needed. puey; I just bought a gallon of 6402 from my local NAPA dealer it was $42.00, unreal. When I use it up I think I will try the Gunk brand I think it is about $12.00, Berryman just stinks too bad. Have a nice day. Geo
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Hi everybody! I've been fighting against thousands of tiny black ants in my home for about 2 months now. After reading several recommendations regarding effective treatments, I decided to use some Terro liquid ant bait traps. I put these out and the ants immediately swarm to them! They parade to the traps for about a day or two, then they stop visiting them. The traps are still full, but ants no longer use them. After about a week or so of limited ant traffic near the traps, they disappear. Not a single ant in sight for about 5 to 7 days. Then, suddenly they reappear in force again! They don't appear to be going after anything in particular and my house is clean (with the exception of dead ants that regularly have to be swept up by the hundreds), but they keep coming back in waves. They come back, I set out new traps, and the cycle repeats. One strange thing is that at night they are more active in a different area than during the day... I have hesitated to call an exterminator because I've read that they usually just treat the area and this only kills the visible ants. In essence, I've heard that the quick-acting treatments they generally use provide immediate, but short-lived results, and ants will almost certainly come back. I have no idea treat this infestation (as I'm more and more frequently calling it these days). Do any of you have real suggestions for dealing with this problem? And please, no folk remedies about using rosemary or white pepper or whatever to keep them out - I want them dead for good. I don't want a band-aid that involves me always having to be on the lookout for their inevitable return! Thank you all in advance for taking the time to read this! I have hesitated to call an exterminator because I've read that they usually just treat the area and this only kills the visible ants. In essence, I've heard that the quick-acting treatments they generally use provide immediate, but short-lived results, and ants will almost certainly come back. Please be aware that the advice about colony elimination, as opposed to the short term results, on the diy sites is, in large part, coming from the pros. Look up the old threads on ant control. That said, continue baiting, keeping it fresh. Sounds like you are doing that already. It is possible that the colony is simply that large. What about exterior ant bait stations with liquid? Is it still warm enough where you are located? Don't spray anything inside as it may kill the ants before they get the bait back to the colony. Typically we don't find many dead ants when baiting, unless something other than the bait is killing them. The ants usually die where they live, when dying from baiting. Usually the colony, at least with the smaller ants, is close to where you see the most activity. They don't forage far like carpenter ants do. Are there any concrete slabs like sidewalk, patio against the exterior wall closest to the activity? Is you house on a slab? These little guys live under slabs. Dead ants are a good sign of positive results, you will win if you persist. Keep us posted. I put out the liquid inside and keep replenishing it as they consume it When they're really bad, I put granules down outside the house as well Sometimes takes me weeks of continuous effort to get this under control Thank you both for your replies! @ PAbugman: I hope I didn't sound like I was putting down exterminators! That's not what I meant at all. I've just read many stories of bad ant infestations being treated superficially with temporary results, and I want to be clear that I want them gone completely and permanently (or as permanently as is possible)! That being said, I probably could have been more diligent in searching for similar threads on this site, but I did a quick look-around when I first joined. I understand it's very frustrating for members to have to post answers to questions more than once in forums - I'll check it out again - thanks for your advice. In response to a couple of your questions, though: I've used baits outside, too, with generally about the same results as when I use them exclusively inside. I live in Houston, Texas, so it's still fairly warm around here (and humid). I don't spray anything on the ants, because as I've said, I don't want to treat the problem...I want it fixed. So, I've tried to persist with the liquid bait. As far as a slab outside where there is activity - yes, there is a small slab right outside of my back door where I see them the most (during the day). As I stated earlier, they are more active in my living room at night, though, for some reason. Finally, yes my house is on a slab. I'll keep on doing this for as long as it takes, but I've already been at it for a couple of months with no signs of it working (aside from the consistent ebb and flow of activity corresponding to placement of new traps every week or so)! Thank you all for your advice - I'll keep developments posted! No offense taken at all. It's apparent that you've done your homework. I don't quite know what to think about the size and persistency of your ant problem. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. You and I are in dramatically different geographic zones, at least as far as insects are concerned. Maybe your colonies are that much larger than ours. Non-repellent sprays are good to use against ants, as they won't work against your baiting strategy, nor repel ants. Ants continue to walk over the residual and even transmit it back to the colony, similar to bait. Trouble is, over the counter sprays/aeros are all repellent. A good example of professional grade non-repellents would be Phantom (indoors) and Termidor (outdoors). Sometimes these can be purchased on-line by anyone. Individual states may restrict their shipping into that state. These would be concentrates that you mix with water. Have you considered going to an agricultural extension office with ant specimens? They will hopefully identify them specifically, then search for them on internet (university sites) and learn their habits. You may get clues/hints that way. Insect ID is paramount to solving unusual problems. Here in Pa. the ag extension offices are staffed/supported by Penn State. Keep us posted, I'm curious. One strange thing is that at night they are more active in a different area than during the day... The night active ants could be a different specie of ant. Have you compared the ants? Again, this is where accurate identification will help solve this problem. Boric Acid, the active ingredient in Terro, does work slow. well,,,,boric acid for ants.....not bad idea....If any one searching organic pest control service, termite control for commercial, residential, natural pest control and domestic pest control they will find in Australia. Can anyone please tell get rid of those tiny black ants coming from under my house. I have a slab under the house. I live in Florida. BUT I have cats so anything you suggest must be pet safe. I haven't applied anything yet except vinegar and water to the areas I have seen them. Not working very well. Terro is safe: Ant Problem? Terro = Ant Control Solutions Vinegar and other repellents simply scatter the ants sometimes causing them to “bud off” into other colonies. Not what we want for sure. The gel and liquid ant baits are very safe and effective, Terro being one of them. Don’t use sprays/repellents when baiting as you will work against yourself. If you see the ants eating, let them eat undisturbed for however long they want to eat. In fact, keep them supplied with plenty of fresh bait. You may need to do this several times over the next year or so, but I’m finding that it does lead to colony elimination. It’s not a bad idea to use both gels and liquid baits at the same time as ants will want proteins or carbs at different times of year. Me, I eat anything at anytime of the year. Keep us posted with your results. I use liquid Terro inside and granules around the house in a perimeter about 5' thick. It can take a few weeks but this always works. Ants are everywhere, don't expect them to stay away if you stop addressing them. Hey Mitch: I suspect you mean 5’ wide, not thick! Otherwise, what does your granule spreader look like? A dump truck? ha, ha Bet you don’t have any ants! Yep, thanks - 5' wide is what I meant. Cripes, I don't have the budget for the amount of material it would take for 5' thick Sorry to bring this back from the dead but having similar issues here in south FL. How did you guys with the ants make out? Roachforlife: We are still finding that the ant baits: gels, liquids, pastes are still the best for small ants, not so much for carpenter ants. Don’t spray or contaminate the baits and baiting areas with sprays as you will be working against yourself. Baiting works slow so that the foragers can take it back to the colony and get it spread around. Be patient.
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I have a Craftsmann table saw, model number 137.248880. The motor is shot and I need a replacement. The motor model number is RM871, 15 Amp, 5000 RPM. Thanks in advance for your help. Bob Hello Bob, What would you like to know? Parts are available from Sears for that saw. Go to Sears.com and search the model # in Parts. The parts listing does not show a complete motor, but has a breakdown for all the individual parts. I would call them and see if the complete motor is available. I went to and called Sears.com and they have the entire motor ($95 with shipping, Ouch, the entire saw runs $169) or you can purchase bushings, shafts, bearings, etc. at a reasonable price. I would like to find a used or replacement motor but could rebuild it if necessary. Anyone know of other vendors that might sell a simular motor? Thanks for the help. Belt drive or direct drive, 'stat? Take your old motor to a motor repair shop, they're often funky hole in the wall type places, and they'll either fix it or sell you a new (or used) equivalent for a lot less than $95. Or get the exact specs(including size) from your motor and find an industrial surplus store where used motors are a dime a dozen. jc If you have a sears craftsman table saw 137.248880 and the motor burns out, most likely the armature bearing is burnt and Sears doesnt offer it. Al you need to do is purchase a Timken bearing number P200PP and do it yourself. I had to chisel the old one out . It costs $8.00 verses $95 for a new motor!! DTamm, welcome to the forums. In two years, hopefully the OP found his motor or fix. Good idea though on the bearing. Keep an eye on the dates, and you will be current with us. Hope we can help you, and you can help us on problems. Originally Posted by DTamm If you have a sears craftsman table saw 137.248880 and the motor burns out, most likely the armature bearing is burnt and Sears doesnt offer it. Al you need to do is purchase a Timken bearing number P200PP and do it yourself. I had to chisel the old one out . It costs $8.00 verses $95 for a new motor!! DTamm - This is exactly what I need to fix my motor. I did a search, but I can't find that Timken bearing. Where did you find it at? Hi DarkCity, You don't actually have to have a Timken bearing. You just need to match your bad bearing, so take it out if you can without destroying it and usually there is a number series on the side of the outer race. It may not have the name of the manufacturer, but the number series usually will indicate the manufacturer to anyone who is familiar with them. You can take the number and cross reference it to whatever manufacturer (bearing) is available. Either a motor shop or a bearing shop can help you with this, they'll have parts books for bearings with numbers for equivalent bearings from the different manufacturers. The other way is would be to measure the bearing, the diameter of the outer race, the diameter of the center hole, the thickness, see what kind of bearing it is (ball bearing or roller bearing, etc) and find a vendor of bearings. www.grainger.com is a good starting point, they have warehouses all around the country. jc Grainger is a good source; only problem is that they are STRICTLY a wholesaler. They will verify that you are a business before they will ship you a part. I managed to get replacement bearings for my pool pump motor, but only by signing up with my business. They will not sell to retail individuals. Sorry, I didn't think about that Grainger requirement. I guess I always owned a business when I went to one. But I don't remember them being very strict about that rule. I just looked at the registration page on their web site there are no real requirements unless you want to avoid paying sales tax (then you need a resale certificate). It looks to me that you could have a part time lemonade business on the front lawn and you could still qualify to purchase there. I just called Grainger and confirmed that any business, any size, any kind, will qualify you to purchase from them. Also, if you don't have a business, they have something called an accomodation account that allows you to purchase anything shown in their catalog at the catalog price. So they've made it real easy... Must have discovered all the $$$ they were losing. I took a quick browse and didn't see that on the website, so it must be an insider work-around that you would have to know. On the registration page the Full company name is a required block. Originally Posted by Bobstat I have a Craftsmann table saw, model number 137.248880. The motor is shot and I need a replacement. The motor model number is RM871, 15 Amp, 5000 RPM. Thanks in advance for your help. Bob Hello, what do you need for help? A used motor OK? Hi, I cannot locate a cross reference for the Timken P200PP mentioned in this thread. The rear bearing on my rm871 armature assembly needs to be replaced but I can't see the number on the side of the bearing. It is too worn out to read. Does anyone have the bearing number and/or a store where I can purchase this bearing? Also, how do I remove it? It's really stuck on the shaft. I'm afraid to chisel it out because I'll probably damage the surrounding parts. Will a bearing splitter work? Thanks! From the web site, Timken® Products Catalog, I downloaded the ballbearings.pdf file. The code for P200PP looks to mean: P = loose fit 200 = single row, light PP = two seals Is that correct? It doesn't mention outside and inside bore diameters. Does anyone know what those are? I dont' think I have the proper tools to accurately measure this. Is it metric or in inches for the rm871 bearing? Thanks again. Hmm, It seems this very old thread is attracting a lot of traffic with folks having the same problem with their Craftsman table saw motor. That Timken number relates to a bearing type and not a specific model. To match that bearing you would need to locate the number, either on the bearing cover or on the side of the outer ring. (Often need a magnifying glass and a flashlight.) If there is no number you would need a good caliper to measure the shaft diameter, outer race diameter and thickness. You should be able to find a caliper that would work at an import tool store for under twenty bucks. If is a 5/8 shaft many actually use a metric bearing number 6203 and if a rubber seal will be a 6203RS. 6203 refers to the size, the rest is window dressing. You should be able to get the size of that number online, it is one of the most common small bearings out there. A bearing splitter sounds like it would be a great tool but for some reason what is commonly called a bearing splitter is actually a backing plate that splits apart and fits in behind a bearing so a puller has something to grab on to. Removing bearings is as much an art as anything and requires some creative thinking and tools. In many cases they are just not removable without damage and this is mostly found on disposable assemblies. If you were able to provide a clear close up picture we may be able to offer something more specific. You can post pictures on a free host like Photo Bucket and provide a link. Another way to remove a frozen bearing is to use a high speed grinder (or even a die grinder) with a grinding tip or a cutting disk. You could also buy a cutting disk adapter that will work with a regular drill. I've bought them (and 2 or 3 cutting disks) at Home Depot and used them to cut off padlocks. Bearing metal is real tough, I've actually only used a die grinder on a frozen bearing, but it's worth trying a cutting disk if you have a drill, it won't cost much and it's easier to control than a grinding tip. When you get to the inner bearing race, grind almost all the way through and then use a chisel to knock off the race. If it's melted onto the shaft you'll have to smooth/sand the shaft so the new bearing will fit well. I took my old bearing to ABI Industries in Oakland, CA. They found a replacemnt bearing: Enduro 6200 z c3. I believe they measured the old bearing at 10mm inside dia, 30mm outside diam, 9mm wide. It cost me $1.50 for the replacement. I purchased a bearing puller on ebay for $25 so I still think I came out ahead. Sure beats buying a new motor when the old one is still usable. Beer 4U2 Sorry, the part number is Enduro 6200 zz c3. It took me less than 15 minutes to tap in the new bearing and slap the motor back together and remount. I powered it up and it seems to be running fine. So I have the same problem everyone else did here. I have a 6200zz bearing ordered, have the old bearing off, but have never done this before. Any tips for getting the new bearing on the armature assembly? Thanks. Here are some general suggestions for installing the bearing since I don't know what this motor looks like. If you have to install the bearing onto a shaft, find a short hollow pipe that's just a little larger than the shaft and will fit over it, put the bearing on the shaft (first make sure the shaft is smooth) as far as you can by hand...and then use the pipe as a drift, tapping it with a hammer. The important thing is to be pushing the pipe/drift on the inner bearing land (ring), not the outer one. If you have a pipe that's a good fit then you can tap the bearing straight down. Expect some resistance, but some medium hammer blows should do it. You shouldn't have to hit it as hard as you can, or use a giant sledge hammer. If your pipe/drift is larger than the inner bearing land(ring), then rest an edge(of the pipe) on part of the inner bearing land and tap once, then move the pipe edge around the circle of the inner bearing land tapping as you go. You don't want to c...k the bearing so try many light taps, always moving around the circle. If you don't have a pipe, use a drift or a punch, but it's just that much harder to keep the bearing from cocking. If the bearing goes into a round slot matching the outer bearing land (ring)...and the shaft comes later...you can fit the old bearing on top of the new bearing and tap on the old bearing to push the new bearing down into the round slot. This time you can emphasize tapping on the outer bearing land (ring) since that's where the interference is. Sorry about the c...k but this silly forum won't let me use the four letter word c..k even though it's a regular word used in the English language. To all the perverts reading this, sorry about that, you'll have to find your trills elsewhere. Try the washing machine forums. Thanks JBCLEM. I got the bearing on with no problems. As an FYI to anyone reading this forum, I ordered my bearing from drillspot.com. It just came via UPS today and I ordered it on Tuesday night (2 days ago!). Funny thing is that the package came and when I looked over the packing slip, it came from a company several have mentioned here - Grainger. So...if you do not own a business and cannot register as a buyer at Grainger.com, just order from drillspot.com because Grainger must handle that website. Thanks for all the help. I just saved $65 buying the bearing versus a new armature assembly from Sears. Now I just have to put the motor back together and put it back in the table saw (fingers crossed). The information in this thread was right on. I ordered the bearing on faith from Drillspot.com and had it in 2 days. My rear motor bearing was seized and would not pull off the shaft even with a bearing puller. I had to grind it off. The new bearing required only light tapping to get on the shaft. Table saw works like new. Sears must have bought a lot of motors with bad bearings. Hello all... Interesting thread, and it's nice to see I'm not alone. My saw (Tradesman BT2502W with RM871 motor) died last night because the rear bearing seized. Today I found a local bearing supply that had both front and rear bearings in stock for about $5 each. They pointed me to the welding shop across the street where I was able to have the old bearings pulled and new ones pressed on; I gave the guy $5 (the high end of his suggested fee). Now the motor is reassembled, reinstalled, and singing! The bearings I purchased were ORS (a Turkish company), and were sealed, not just shielded. The part numbers were 62002RS and 62012RS. Cheers! Heres the deal on bearings. Always always buy domestic equivalent bearing. Avoid Chinese bearings like the plague. If you can't read the number just give the bearing house the OD, ID, width number of seals on your failed bearing. You always want a dual sealed bearing or a sealed for life bearing. If you can't get the bearing off, the OD of the shaft will work for the ID of the bearing. Dake makes a great manual press for removing bearings. Quite useful for other projects as well. Do not buy shielded bearings. They are like a screen door in a submarine. Sealed bearing are usually rubber, neoprene or silicone and will keep contaminates out and prevent lock ups. Shielded bearing have a metal shield on both sides and are liken to a leaky faucet in reverse in other words allowing contaminates into the bearing. Its always a good idea to use an air compressor if you have one to blow all the saw dust out of the motors anyway when done with a project. Its just a good practice to lengthen the life of any power tool motor. Just be sure to bleed off the water from the tank that accumulates first. If you don't have a compressor a can of compressed air works too or use the blower setting on your shop vac. Just allow a few seconds in the blower position to remove contaminates from the hose. Some of the bad press about the Bosch 4100-9 is due to the bearing failing on the fan end of the motor. The fan pulls air in to keep the motor cool. It not only pull in air but contaminates. They still use shielded bearings. One retailer in Omaha replaces the shielded bearings on their new saws because they know they will fail eventually. Haven't gotten my Bosch but will do so in the spring. I have looked for reviews or even some place that stocks the Makita 2705X1 but they are scarce as hens teeth. The Bosch offers other nice features like the TS1002 TS1003. Rear out feed table left side extension. Hope this is helpful. An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Thanks for everyones postings. My saw puked out this weekend and I was very close to bidding on a replacement motor on e-bay this morning. I stumbled on to your sight by luck and not having a lot of experience with motors or repairing anything myself . . . I'm pretty confident that once the bearing arrives, I shouldn't have a problem putting it in. If I do, I'll be back! It is good to know that there is resource like this available. Kudos to all of you willing to share! Thanks again! Craftsman Table Saw 137.248880 Thanks guys.. I know this is an old thread.. but good information.. I picked up my bearing from Purvis Bearing Industries.. Part number 6200 2RSJEM SKF (Brand) about $10. I purchased the 2RS bearing.. (2 Rubber sealed bearing.. instead of the shielded bearing...) This only the outside bearing.. (Bearing at the brush end of the motor.) This is an easy job, but getting the old bearing off the shaft is fun.. I didn't have my bearing spliter, so I ended up cutting the bearing with a die grinder, and spliting it with a chisel.. Only hint.. is to mark the inner shield around the fan portion of the motor.. (if installed incorrectly it will cover the passageway for the fan.) Thanks again, Bryan Hey, I have the same sutuation Model 137.218010 Serial RHV15 is the table saw numbers the motor Model number is Model RM872 and its a craftsman as well 10 table saw. I did have the motor tested and they say is the armature bad would need to get it rewond. Will this method work for what I have I have a sears craftsman table saw (137-248100) with motor RM871. Am I mistaking or isn't the Bearing/Bushing needed a #8 87840081 oQRO? Got my motor torn apart. Number on brg. is 62004, don't know brand. Local auto store has brg. and the number is 200cc like for $4.50 or a BCA 200cc for $14.00. My measurements were 9.95 mm or .3915 in. inside. Outside was 29.96 mm or 1.1795 in.. And the width was 9.0 mm or .3540 in.. Got motor put back together. Must of had a piece of the bearing shield caught in the winding some where. Burnt winding and armature. Bought new table saw at Sears for $169. They wanted $140 for new motor for old saw. My kingdom (table saw) for a horse (bearing). Craftsman table saw and RM871 motor. I thought my motor had burned out, so I started looking at new table saws. I couldn't believe how cheap they are. The table extending clamps are cheap plastic, and the saw blade up/down, slant mechanism looks really chintzy. I figured the table saw I have now is of better quality than the new ones. I started researching the RM871 motor and found this forum. I than realized that my problem might just be a bearing. I got a Nachi-Fujikoshi sealed bearing (6200-2NE/RS/2RS) from E-bay for 6 bucks. I went to a local electric shop and payed $15 ($10 plus $5 tip) to pull the old bearing and install the new. When you pull the motor apart, use the blowups in the owner's manual, or take pictures with a digital camera to insure correct reassembly. Digital pictures of the on/off switch wiring and reset switch wiring also helps. My table saw is now running like it used to, and I am out only $21. I know this is an old thread, but please keep it open. I'm sure there are lots of RM871 motors ready to destroy their bearings. The brg was bad. I could have replaced it but the armature had melted some. JUNK On the RM 871 motor, I've got a new bearing on the brush end OK, but the rubber mounting (basically a cup formed piece of rubber) is unusable. It seems specific to this unit. I would welcome any source, even a scrap unit where the windings, armature, or bearings are shot, but the mounting is OK. Thanks. Had same bearing problem. Got it through drillspot / grainger. arrived in 1 day. using dremel to cutoff old bearing. tapped new one on using wood block and hammer. Saw works fine. Thanks everyone for advice and for keeping thread open To follow up on the RM871 motor bearing problem, Sears has parts for the RM872, including the brush end rubber bushing (mounting in my initial post). I ordered the 872 bushing and it fits the 871. Saw is running fine. Thanks for comments. I need to purchase a new or used electric motor model 113.12172 or the newer motor 113.12202 115 volt, single phase. 1 or more HP. If necessary I could modify a motor so that it would fit physically. Let me hear from ya. Thanx Originally Posted by rickluc Got motor put back together. Must of had a piece of the bearing shield caught in the winding some where. Burnt winding and armature. Bought new table saw at Sears for $169. They wanted $140 for new motor for old saw. I bought the same? table saw on sale for $100 from Sears.
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I'm about to retrofit exhaust fans into two adjacent 2nd floor bathrooms. Please assist with any do's and don'ts, and any gotchas that I should look out for. Especially regarding the roof vent and cutting the roof. The forum search function was giving a database error. My plan: - Two fans, separate 4 hard ducting, real aluminum duct tape, insulated, venting out to roof Q's: 1. Is hard ducting really required over flexible? The big boxes sell a retrofit kit that comes with flexible ducting (obviously for versatility of installation). I will have to piece everything together by going hard ducting. 2. I'm assuming one roof vent and using a Y adaptor is a no-no? 3. The roof vent will be new territory for me. How far apart must the roof vents be, considering the two bathrooms are adjacent? 4. Do I need to caulk the roof vent to the plywood? Between the vent and the shingles? 5. Anything else, ESPECIALLY related to the roof vent? Thanks! 1. Is hard ducting really required over flexible? The big boxes sell a retrofit kit that comes with flexible ducting (obviously for versatility of installation). I will have to piece everything together by going hard ducting. Rigid ducting is preferable although a short section of flexible is okay for vibration isolation and to make fitting up easier. The ductwork should be insulated to reduce the chance for condensation. 2. I'm assuming one roof vent and using a Y adaptor is a no-no? That is correct; two fans need two separate roof jacks (the proper term) for exhaust. 3. The roof vent will be new territory for me. How far apart must the roof vents be, considering the two bathrooms are adjacent? They can be as close as you desire although putting each one in its own bay (between a pair of rafters or trusses) is probably preferred for roof strength. 4. Do I need to caulk the roof vent to the plywood? Between the vent and the shingles? No, you follow the instructions that should be included with the roof jacks. Generally, the upper edge of the roof jack slips under the row of shingles above the jack and the lower edge is nailed through the sheet metal and shingles. Use some roof cement over the nail heads. If you are not sure you can run a bead of roof cement under the the outer edges of the roof jack on the sides only and also run some cement over the outside on the sides. Do not seal the bottom of the jack. 5. Anything else, ESPECIALLY related to the roof vent? The above information applies to asphalt shingles. If you have wooden shingles or any other type of roof you may want to get a roofer to install the roof jacks. A good way to find a roofer for this tiny job is to see if anyone in the neighborhood is having a roof replaced and then ask the foreman if he or one of his workers wants to make a few bucks on the side. If you have a steep roof or anything but asphalt shingles this is the best fifty or hundred bucks you can spend. Yes, furd covered it. My two cents from my files: The roof mounted exhaust is 5-10% more efficient at removing warm, moist air (hot air rises) than a soffit mounted one. Roof terminal should have a pipe neck attached for a positive connection. Use straight pipe (metal or PVC) whenever possible, wrapped with insulation and a vapor barrier. Corrugated, flex pipe creates turbulence and has almost double the surface area for water exhausted from baths to collect on. Use as few bends as possible with 45*s instead of 90*. Tape metal joints with silver tape, not duct tape (4 year life). Tape the individual joints of each elbow. Use 3 screws on each metal joint. Use HVAC black tape for plastic covered insulation. Insulate the whole pipe and the fan box. Use caulk to seal the small gaps at the fan to wallboard joint. Let no heated moist air escape into the attic which causes mold and mildew, wets insulation (defeating its purpose) or possibly making frost in your attic and ice dams on the roof. Notice the increase for accordian duct: Bathroom Fan Sizing Be safe, Gary
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Replacing honeywell zone valve motor - morphed into add on wood boiler
Hi, my house have 6 zone and one of the Honeywell zone valve seem not to be working. I was suggested by the plumber that i have to options 1 is the replace the motor which is cheaper and another is the replace the whole valve and he is recommending White Rogers zone valve. I was wondering if I were to purchase the honeywell zone valve motor can I DIY and what is the procedure? Is White Rogers zone valve more reliable than Honeywell? Please advice. Stay with the honeywell. The motor should cost about $30 and be easy as pie to change. One screw holds it in and when the screw is removed, the motor turns a slight amount and comes right out. Lock the valve in the open position before removing the motor. Ken Hi Ken The Honeywell valve has 2 red and 2 yellow wire do i need to remove those before i remove the motor? The plumber mention to me that zone valve usually have life time to 10 to 15 years is there any truth to that in your experience. Mine is about 16 years old. Also how do i test if the zone valve is really working ? I saw the plumber put tester showing 24v, during thermostat not calling for heat. And according to him when the thermostat is calling for heat the voltage of the zone valve should drop to 5v or less? If it is still around 20 to 24v when thermostat is on then zone valve is not functioning. Please advice if that is the case that the zone valve motor is bad. thanks Only the wires that go to the motor need to be disconnected. The other 2 can stay connected. They are for the end switch that starts the circulator and burner. Maybe we should back up and diagnose this first. You didn't seem unsure of the problem in your first post but sounded a little confused in your second. The zone valve gets 24 volts from the thermostat circuit when it needs to open and start the heat flowing. When the thermostat is satisfied, the 24 volts turns off and the valve closes by an internal spring. It is a very simple operation. When a motor fails, the power gets to the motor but it won't turn. Sometimes there is a problem with the end switch and even though the valve is open, the pump and burner won't start because the switch isn't working. Maybe you should check into more of these possibilities and post back. Ken Sorry Ken I am just a newbie trying to save some money because the plumber quote me $300 cad to replace the motor since he diagnose that the motor is not working. (note the motor feel hot when i touch it) I check the zone valve it is Honeywell V8043G1018 24V ~ 50-60 Hz, 6w 32 amps 60 Hz The motor is 8951 Synchron Now the situation is as follows ... when the thermostat call for heat, i can hear the zone valve open (i can move the override switch easily to the other side without resistant). Now my problem is it does not send enough voltage to start the boiler. It attempt several time and failed. You point out that sometimes there is a problem with the end switch and even though the valve is open, the pump and burner won't start because the switch isn't working. ..... ok could my situation be the problem of end switch instead of the motor? How do i verified ... and if necessary replace the end switch? wire connection --- 2 red from zone valve to boiler 1 yellow from zone valve to thermostat black wire 1 yellow from zone valve to 24v transformer black wire transformer white is connected to thermostat white Please advice me more and thank you for you patience. Your problem is not the motor. I would suggest changing the whole powerhead. The end switch is not really a repairable part and it is just as easy to replace the head and probably easier to find. It only requires the removal of 2 screws and does not open the system. Some older valves did not have replaceable heads but anything in the last 20 years is probably OK. Ken Thank you Ken Replacing the powerhead did the job : ) Good good. Ken I have the same valve in our house we need to replace it about every 2 years. The issue is that it will not turn off the flow into floor. The heat source is our hot water heater that supplies the house. After replacing the valvle do I have to bleed the system? Or will any air that enters the system just work it's way out through the taps throughout the house? Also, any ideas on why the valve keeps on failing, we've had the house for 7 years and this is the 3rd valve. Mountain, have you 'dissected' the old valves to try and determine 'root cause' of the failure? You say it won't shut off... do you mean that the motor tries to close the valve and it can't? I guess what I'm driving at here is if the problem is that the VALVE BODY, or the POWER HEAD is failing? I am not a fan of using potable water from a water heater to heat a home, and the fact that it's 'fresh' water which contains tons of dissolved oxygen and minerals might have a strong relationship to the failure mode. Can you show us a pic of the installation? Set up a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing video sharing at Photobucket and upload pics there, come back here and drop a link to your album. I have a three zone residential boiler set-up that uses Honeywell V8043 zone valves. One zone stopped heating the other day so I started looking at it from the thermostat forward. I made some mistakes because I assumed the wire ran directly to the powerhead. Now I have visually checked and see that the wire goes to one of the other valves no to the zone in question. The system has been working fine for years. Is the voltage somehow looped in and out of the other valves in the process of making things work? I did run a test wire from the thermostat directly to the power head and things seemed to work fine except I couldn't seem to get any water circulation (which isn't all that fine I guess). Thanks Here is a basic diagram that shows how two 8043's would be connected: If you had more valves, they would just be added the same way as these two. I think the answer to the question is YES, the 24VAC could be 'daisy chained' from one valve to the next. There are many ways to PHYSICALLY run the wires, that all result in the same ELECTRICAL arrangement. For example: In this diagram, bottom wire on the 24VAC side of the transformer is shown going from one valve to the next. It COULD be wired with individual wires each going back to the transformer. Whatever is easiest and neatest to do in a given situation is the best way. Some Honeywell valves (the V8043F models) have screw terminals to connect the wiring to. Others (the V8043E models) have two yellow wires, and two red wires coming out of the valve. The YELLOW wires go to the MOTOR, and the RED wires go to the ENDSWITCH. Here's what you need to look at: When a thermostat calls for heat, it will switch on and complete the 24VAC circuit and send that voltage to the MOTOR in the valve. The motor should run. You should hear it. Have a helper turn up the thermostat while you listen for the motor in the valve to run. There is also a MANUAL OPEN lever on one end of the valve. When the valve is OPEN, this lever will be 'floppy' and loose when you move it... you will feel no resistance. When the valve is CLOSED, and you operate that lever, you will feel some resistance, and you will hear the gears 'whirring' inside as you move it from AUTO to MAN. OK, next, looking at the diagram, there are wires coming out that are paralleled together on all the valves, and these wires go to the boiler control. The ENDSWITCH is a small switch inside the valve head that MAKES CONTACT when the valve OPENS. There is NO electrical connection between the yellow wires and the red wires inside the valve. It is two separate circuits. A good way to describe what happens is that the Thermostat TELLS the zone valve to open. It doesn't talk directly to the boiler. When the valve opens, it tells the boiler to run... it passes the message on through the zone valve. Make sense so far? Good... There are two basic ways that a zone valve can fail. 1. The MOTOR can fail. In this case (assuming the problem is not the transformer, wiring, or thermostat), you won't hear the motor run, and the auto/man lever will have some resistance to pushing. 2. The ENDSWITCH can fail. In this case, the valve WILL open, but it will not pass the call on to the boiler and it won't fire, and the circ won't run. That's the 'skinny' on how they work... should help you troubleshoot. If ONE zone has stopped working, you can rule out the transformer being bad. It could be, but most likely is NOT the thermostat. (DO check the BATTERIES if it has them) It could be a loose connection in the wiring, check all the connections for clean and tight. In my experience, it is USUALLY the ENDSWITCH not making contact and calling the boiler to fire. Our friend Grady might say it's usually the MOTOR though... Thanks for your response. With your help I have a better understanding of the operation of the system. Two out of three of my loops are working fine. I have to get another power head tomorrow. I still would like to understand better troubleshoot the zone valve though. How can its various functions be tested? I get that the T stat just puts a short on the valve to operate the motor and the pump? That also sends voltage to the pump thru the TR terminal... right? I do understand that when the valve is open the lever is loose and when not it is closed. What I the best way to tell that the motor is dead, or the pump isn't getting voltage because the end switch is bad. Sorry, I'm electrically challenged as you can tell. Thank you though because now I have a much better idea of what is going on so that the next time I will be able to shed that blind squirrel mantel. dave Hi Dave, Can't answer at length at the moment, I will add to this later this evening, but wanted to touch base with ya and find out the make/model of your boiler. The thermostat or zone valve don't DIRECTLY control the pump. The pump would usually be wired into a device on your boiler that is called an AQUASTAT. When the zone valves open, and the endswitch makes contact, it sends a call to the AQUASTAT control on the boiler. It is the aquastat in turn that then controls both the burner and the circulator. This is the USUAL set up, all systems differ, and yours may. More later... NJ Trooper, I have a Slant Fin L-30 boiler that burns oil. Today I replaced the zone valve causing problems. Now the zone functions properly with one exception. Now the TS seems to be causing problems. I added a wire to short the circuit to enable the zone. The strange thing is that it runs for a while and brings up heat but then it shuts off. Now it doesn't get ungodly hot. Just very warm. I can change the TS but feel like there still might be something going on I don't understand. I would thing with the TS short is should run almost constantly. Thanks. Dave Dave, when you say 'it shuts off', do you mean that the BURNER shuts off ? When this happens, does the CIRCULATOR PUMP continue to run? In that AQUASTAT which I mentioned earlier, there is what is called a HIGH LIMIT control. That control measures the water temperature in the boiler and will shut off the BURNER if the water reaches that temperature. It is USUALLY set at 180°F. If the thermostat is still calling for heat when this happens, the CIRCULATOR will continue to run and pump the hot water in the boiler to the zone. Can you tell us what the TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE gauge on the boiler is reading when 'it shuts off' ? Thanks. Yes, I will study this stuff during the day tomorrow and post it afterward. How do I tell if the circulator continues to run. Can I check voltage in the Aquastat? The circulator is a Taco and runs hot and quiet so the hands are tough. Maybe a stethescope? later, dave Yes, stethoscope... sorta... Place the handle end of a long screwdriver in your ear, and the pointy end on the circ... you should be able to hear it running. I am also having an end switch issue I think. I have 2 zones one works fine one will occasionally call for circulation but not consistently so i swapped motors and have the same issue, so I'm thinking it's the end switch, I have erie zone valves with the number vt2343g13a02a0f on them. if i can get a replacement power head (where?) can i replace it without draining the system. NJ Trooper: Sorry I got lost recently but last week my wife dragged me out shopping and other holiday type stuff. I have everything working now after replacing a second zone valve. I also found a broken TS wire which added to the problem. I plan to copy all these comments and also make some notes on how water flow sounds when the boiling is working properly so when it does go down I may be able to solve problems more quickly... things such as temps, sound of water rushing thru the circulator, etc. I wanted to thank you again for your help getting me thru this but I wanted to run something by you before I leave. Our home is a traditional 4 bdrm colonial (but only 15 years old) on a crawl with an attached garage of almost 1000 sq ft. I have been wondering for some time how difficult it would be to put an airtight in the garage that could heat the house. I have a place to put it but would have to pex to the boiler. I would have a separate external chimney which wouldn't be an extraordinary problem. My question is how difficult do you think it would be to switch the system so that hot water from the stove would tell the boiler to shut off and to supply hot water to the entire system when available from the stove? Be curious as to what you might say about this. Have a very Merry Christmas. Thanks. dave Hi Dave, no problem... as you can probably tell, I seem to always be here! A wood stove addition is 'do-able', but there is a pretty substantial learning curve. There's a lot to consider, and a lot depends on the actual wood stove. (when you said 'airtight', you did mean a wood burning boiler appliance, yes?) Maybe a wood burning boiler is what I mean. I need an airtight wood burner combined with a tank and a coil I would think. I wouldn't want to replace my oil burner... just help it out. To do this one would have to spend money on a good saw, splitter... etc. Thanks. dave Hi Dave, Although not airtight I am doing similar. Search for System 2000 with wood stove in this forum for my latest design. Trooper helped me out on this. Waiting for a TurboMax 65 storage tank to arrive next week so I can plumb the wood stove back in for the rest of the winter. I have been running a setup for the last 5+ years...and apparently made some prior mistakes (like using the boiler as my storage tank...don't do that!)...but now I am doing it the way I have always wanted to do it since I can afford it..the right way...and it also seems to be my hobby these days. Hi Tom, I've just started to look into this idea a little. It's a shame to have hwbbh and pay for oil if you can help it. I have the location for a chimney and a space in a large garage to place the airtight. Why is it you chose not to use an airtight? I also hear the clock is ticking on systems as new regulations require wood gasification units that should be dramatically higher in price with 2011 right around the corner. Does your storage tank have a coil in it circulating water thru the boiler waiting for a demand call? I have to figure out expand your prints. Thanks. dave This little article although not exactly what you guys are thinking of (where ya gonna get, or place a 500 gallon tank?) has some very good points to understand when burning wood as an alternate source. Gasification Rectification - The Glitch and The Fix - Radiant and Hydronics Hi Dave, I read Trooper's article and will comment thru out my reply. It's a long one... I got a $75 wood stove (practically free!) years ago that has pipes in the inside side walls, going thru the top of the stove to a small built-in water holding tank on the top of the wood stove. It is in my basement, with a double walled SS pipe running out the basement window and up the side of my dining room wall (single level on this end of the house, I paid for that!). The first year after installing it, I did not plumb in the water lines, but just burned it as a regular old wood stove. My son's bedroom on the other end of the house (above the garage) was ice cold since the heat would not travel that far. So I installed a vent above the rec room drop ceiling from the basement to his room with a fan...still too cold in there. The following year, I plumbed the stove plumbing into the boiler and heated the boiler water to 180F, then fired the house circulator to distribute the heat. (Yes, I installed a new pressure relief valve on the wood stove tank) This system ran fine for quite a number of years..until the boiler pressure vessel started to weep, thus blowing steam up the boiler chimney each time the boiler fired. This is bad as the flue pipe basically fell apart and degraded the internal boiler firewall. Circulating the boiler water without monitoring the return water temp into the boiler was a bad thing, resulting in the pressure vessel rotting away due to condensation because the boiler itself was not hot. I think this is why NJ Trooper referred us to the article. DON'T DO THIS or you will most likely have a similar BAD result. I have come to the conculsion that I screwed up my own heater (but I did save tons of money over the years!) I think I used less than 300 gallons of oil last year (12 months) for heat and hot water. It has been a learning process...and a hobby. New EK System 2000 and SS flue liner installed on 12/10. Fast forward to the latest and greatest design. I am in the process to doing more detailed mechanical and electrical schematics until the remaining parts arrive. If you are interested, I will post the more detailed drawings/schematics as I update them. They include expansion tanks, air vents and part numbers. The new design parallels my wood stove and the boiler. If the boiler is circulating heat thru the house, the zone monitor relay in my system temporarily disables my system from doing the same. The new design is much more efficient. I will be using a Grundfos Alpha circulator to circulate water from the wood stove to the REVERSE indirect storage tank only, or from the wood stove to the baseboard and thru the reverse indirect storage tank. The Alpha circulator is a smart circulator which monitors its' own pressure and automatically adjusts as needed, so when my system changes the direction of the 3-way valve, the pump should auto adapt to the new load (including the baseboard run). This differs from the old way I was doing things, constantly operating a 60 watt pump, then firing the house circulator. Now only the one circulator will be running. Note the REVERSE indirect tank mentioned above. ErgoMax in NJ or Thermo2000 in Canada are 2 choices that I have found (ordered the Thremo2000 TurboMax65 at PexSupply.com over the weekend). This is where the boiler water (or wood stove water) is the main volume in the tank, and a (safe) copper coil runs thru the water volume used for DHW. Regular tanks are either stainless or require an anode rod to avoid internal corrosion. In winter when I will be burning wood, the well water passes thru the first tank and pre-warms the water before entering the second 40 gallon tank when opening the hot water tap. This also reduces the need for the boiler to heat the indirect tank. In summer, when the stove is not operating, the water in the tank should help (ever so slightly) pre-warm the incoming water before reaching the 40 gallon tank. The reverse indirect storage tank will receive the cold baseboard return water and take the thermal shock that will result. It will also be used as a small buffer (72 gallons, not 500 gallons!) if I do not need heat in the house. Of course, I have controls to do a heat dump into the baseboard if the system gets too hot and the house is not calling for heat. Yet another reference to NJ Trooper's article. I am also working on a thermoelectric generator that mounts to both sides the the wood stove water tank. I will be charging a 12V battery, then running the system from battery (and inverter) on a power failure. (Yet another reference to NJ Trooper's article) My long-term hope is the generator will provide enough power so that when I get the fire going, the generator automatically takes over and self-powers my wood stove system...take that PECO energy deregulation! (probably a pipe dream...but hey, I'm allowed to dream) Good write Thomas! I will be especially interested in the outcome of the TEG ! That is so cool as to cause me to be almost speechless... a very rare occurence! Why Thank you... You called it a TEG, so does that mean you are familiar with the Peltier effect? If so, you really are a Jack-of-all-trades! I have been building this slowly over the years. Just ordered the final parts (thermal gap pads) to create my 21 x3.5 heatsink sections for both sides of the tank, each containing 24 1 x1 TE devices. It will be cool, regardless of if it can completely power the entire system. I just like tinkering...and my wife puts up with it! I've been called a Renaissance Man from time to time! Sure, I know about the Peltier Effect... You will of course be charging batteries, correct? Yes, this is way off topic, but cutting edge stuff... and it CAN be used to self power boiler controls! Battery - one small 12V tractor battery (borrowed from my riding mower in winter) will do as a buffer. Of course a microprocessor will be monitoring the charge current and battery voltage, and with a known system load current, I should be able to determine when to throw a relay to divert system power from the electric company to the inverter/battery. It's all flowcharted out, just need to complete the processor firmware. ANy extra power will start lighting lightbulbs in the basement..but I don't think I'll get that much extra power. I am currently looking to reduce power draw from the controls...a bit of thinking now will pay off later. A set/reset relay can enable and lock the control on with only momentary power draw vs a 120VAC coil relay that needs power applied all the time. The Alpha pump helps the most in power conservation. Next to find a way to open the air damper and keep it open with very little power consumption, but still allow it to close if power is removed. The current air damper draws about 20W. I am uncertain of the location of the end switch. Is it located over the top of the motor where the red wires connect to a mircoswitch or elsewhere. Steel, you are going to have to give us a whole lot more info... I have no idea what you are talking about... I mean, I know what an endswitch is, but what are you referring to? I may end up moving this to it's own thread because it doesn't seem related to this discussion at all? Above the moderator wrote that there were two basic failure modes for zone valves. (1)The motor fails. (2)The end switch fails. This seems to imply that the valve itself doesn't fail, just the peripheral stuff. These things can be over ridden so that you can get heat. IF the motor fails you can manually overide the motor (at least the honeywell valve that I have) by moving the little lever into the Man. Open position and you will get heat. If the switch fails you can remove the switch from the circuit by disconnecting the two red wires from the switch and connecting them together by hand. This will keep heat to your zone, but you'll have to turn it on and off by hand (disconnecting the wires and moving the lever out of the man. open position). There is a 3rd failure mode which in my (limited) experience is very common; the valve itself fails. Then there is no resistance when you push the manual lever. As far as I know, in this case the entire valve must be replaced. I recently had a plumber replace a zone valve and he commented that my valves were in backwards. They'd been that way since I bought the house 15 years ago. I've had a fair number of zone valves fail over the years, although until recently none had failed for maybe 8 years. There is an arrow on the valves indicating the direction that the water is supposed to flow through the valves. I'm thinking that having the valves in backwards shortened their life time? If you replace a valve yourself read the instructions! They will tell you to put the valve in the man. open position while you're sweating it in. This is to keep the valve from being damaged by the heat from the torch. If you have more than one valve does it make sense to put any that are nearby the valve being replaced into the man. open position as well in case the torch heats those valves some? I would love to see the insides of a Honeywell zone valve. Are there pictures available somewhere? Hi John, failure of the valve body is not nearly as common as it might seem. The endswitch and motor are by far the more likely items to fail. Then there is no resistance when you push the manual lever. How do you know that's a failure of the valve body itself? It could also be a failure in the power head... jammed gears holding it open... OR, if the valve IS open by COMMAND from the thermostat, that lever will move FREELY, as you describe. I'm thinking that having the valves in backwards shortened their life time? Maybe... these valves have a rubber ball inside them. When the valve closes the rubber ball is pushed up against the water opening. When installing one can overheat the valve and damage the ball, or the seals at the 'stem' can be damaged. There's lots of tricks that can be used in order to prevent damage to valves when soldering... you could wrap a wet rag around the valve body... when you heat the parts, be careful where you apply the heat... put it on the entering pipe first... when that gets hot enough to take the solder only then play the flame back on the valve body a bit... the solder will 'wick' down the hot pipe into the joint. Always use the proper torch... if you use a pi55 weak torch, you will have to heat and heat and heat ... the longer you are on the part with the torch, the longer the heat has time to migrate to the sensitive parts of the valve... it seems counter-intuitive, but a HOTTER torch is what you want... get in, get hot, get soldered, and GET OUT! as fast as possible. I would love to see the insides of a Honeywell zone valve. Are there pictures available somewhere? Picture a pinball machine... a paddle and a ball, and you got the basic idea. I don't know of any pics anywhere... but you must still have one that was replaced laying around? Dissect it! Hi all I'm new to this forum but not zone valve failure! I Have 7 zones that I built and one by one they are failing for the second and third time. I have diagnoised them at nausium, and consistently found that with sparco, now honeywell, that the end switch is destroyed by the high temp. They are intermittent at times. I have bought new micro switches and replaced them for only 6 dollars but it is not simple to replace the switch. Your entire boiler system is very simple to understand and diagnoise you have to break it down and create a simple diagram of your system. An inexpensive multimeter and diagnostic techniques can help you to identify and repair your system especially that first cold winter night when you want it the most!
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